Thanks for your in-depth cogent takedown of Spier’s absurd essay. The idea that women were “happier” with fewer rights and that female friendship reduces the bonding that should rightfully belong to a man is so ridiculous it sounds like it’s from The Onion. I guess, according to Spier, we should diminish and decenter ourselves and stop spending so much time with our good besties and then all will be right with the world.
Women like Spier take the rights they have for granted. They don’t value what was fought for and what their entire lives as young women are based upon. Maybe she’d be happier staying home and working on her bonds with men instead of having the privilege to use her voice and be taken seriously. That credit card she uses, that business she might own, the mortgage she might have taken out- none of that was available to my generation until our mid- teens. I have a particular problem with women who have no respect for the fact that they have freedoms ( that are under attack) that their foremothers suffered and died for.
I realize you don't understand where Spier's is coming from but the fact that women are happier with less so called rights is absolutely correct. This coming from a women (me) I can't explain to you the power that's in serving a husband and being a traditional wife and mother is very fulfilling. You can say I'm brainwashed or uneducated if you so desire but that would be a lie. I'm highly educated and if you actually knew me personally you would understand I'm far from brainwashed.
You have every right to keep yourself caged and dependent. You have every right to make your husband the center of your world and love your submissive role. Go for it. What you don’t have a right to do is force other women to give up our rights that we fought and suffered for. What is reprehensible is teaching young women to trap themselves and their children in dependency on another person who can control, abuse and abandon you at will. I have no desire to get to know you, Kathy. I’m interested in people who aren’t willing and eager to live under someone else’s boot. I don’t think you’re brainwashed. I don’t think of you at all.
Who is that I'm forcing? You? No I'm just stating my opinion.... just like you! The only reason I'm stating an opinion and your words in this post are very clear you try to belittle me because I believe in traditional relationships meaning I don't share your view on life. You call me caged? You seem quite angry for a women so happy with all the freedom and independence that her feminist ideals have given her!
Well, “Kathy” - I sincerely doubt you’re a woman. You barely have any presence on here, so that’s suspect. You sound like every pathetic man who trolls the feminist stacks. You’re even using the same wording. You would be taking care of your kids and cooking or cleaning up after dinner and not getting into online beefs with random strangers if you were, in fact, what you claim to be. However, you have a ton of stacks teaching you all about how to be submissive in your “reads” section. Are you into being told you’re a bad, bad girl, Kathy? Is that why you sought me out? Because I sound dominant and angry? I’m not interested in giving you your jollies. Go get them elsewhere. I’m done with us hijacking this post. Be a good little sub and crawl away.
Choose whatever lifestyle you want, but recognize that not all women choose to be subservient. Many of us enjoy being adults: thinking for ourselves, and making choices even when they’re difficult. This is how we grow as human beings. Your choice to stay small should not be our prison sentence.
Man here, and I should hesitate to butt in, but I have a few questions for you Kathy.
I am assuming you are Christian, forgive me if that is a mistake. If you are, I would like to know how much you know about women in the bible.
This sounds very similiar to what I have heard some Muslim women say about putting men first. Which raises a question for me if you believe in theocratic rule. Which denomination gets to decide how the bible is interpreted? Catholic? Amish? Lutheran, which synod? The pastor of Sheridan Church? Gateway Church? How about my pastor?
It’s a little girl. She’s wearing a flowered dress. There’s a period in the tradwife life cycle where girls are allowed to play-act being wild and free. When they hit puberty they have to give up all that of course.
You know that how? Because you saw paintings of Jesus with long, blonde hair and blue eyes? You do know that not one of his contemporaries wrote a word about him, let alone his appearance.
You have zero power. None. Nothing. And the person persuading you that you do - most likely your overlord husband - is lying to you.
And you're fine with that. Good for you. But as you're so incredibly smart you should already know that you - one person - cannot speak for the entirety of womanhood on this planet.
So, with the greatest of respect, stop talking now. Your internalized misogyny is showing.
I started reading the Hannah Spier post without knowing anything about her but began to suspect she has a specific point of view when she attributed the development of assertiveness as being induced by anger. In my experience, assertiveness more often develops when more, and better, information becomes available. And sometimes it develops when one’s back is against a wall or when a loved one is in danger. As I continued reading, I came across the phrase “women had properly adjusted to adult functioning”. What, I wonder, would she argue was evidence of such “proper adjustment”? Adult functioning better cover a broad range of areas — public (civic), employment, domestic, social — and who is setting the standard for “proper adjustment” in each of those areas? Furthermore, are those standards gender-based? I realized by the end of her article that I really didn’t want to read anything else from her. But thank you, Professor Meredith, for your post! I may have lived for over 3/4 of a century feeling like a stranger in a strange land, but now feel like I lived through a revolution of sorts wrt female empowerment.
She also seems to present her data in a vacuum. How does women's “happiness” (etc.) compare with men’s during the same periods?
I notice that women are still burdened with maintaining relationships. Where are the men? What is their responsibility?
I read years ago that more women file for divorce than men because men use affairs as their escape. They don't want a divorce. They have no desire to lose the labor of a wife.
Women do have affairs, of course -- if they can find the time.
Feminism didn't make us miserable. We don't walk to our cars with keys between our knuckles, or watch our drinks like a hawk so they don't get adulterated, or any of those things because of feminism.
When I got to the link, I read Spier's essay and threw up in my mouth at least three times. I can't believe how loose her analysis is in a format claiming to expose loose analysis. Perhaps, as I have begun to question lately, Phyllis Shafly is an archetype? Some self-murdering shadow? But... but... but... The analysis, if you could even call it that, just glossed over everything important, pretending that there was a time when everyone was just happy, and the (dant, dant, daaaa) along came those feminists, and it was all downhill from there. Hang the witch! Then I read all those sanctimonious comments praising her good work, and thought: There's the drug. Thank you for addressing her point by point, so meticulously. I hope she reads it.
If this were just about grievance and feminist brainwashing the why do all systems of oppression follow a similar playbook? I dare her to write a piece about how addressing racism has made black people grievance victims(something fox news did on the regular) who were happier when they were kept in their place. Its the same argument; it just dupes us better becuase it overlaps into the personal narratives and social norms that kept us from asking for too much. .
I read Hannah’s article then read yours, Professor Meredith. I also read the comments on Hannah’s piece and my jaw dropped. I honestly couldn’t believe what I was reading. Many of the comments were from men saying how women have been privileged because of their poor, hardworking husbands and that we benefit from all the inventions and research breakthroughs that man made. Except they didn’t, of course. Women were the mothers of invention but had their work hijacked by men. Women were literally the first computers, they invented the wheelie suitcase, the spacesuits used by NASA astronauts were only made possible by women seamstresses among many other things.
I nearly left a comment myself thanking them for mansplaining feminism to me, despite my lived experience. The whole thing was a backlash at angry women even though we are angry for good reason. “Good women don’t get angry”, but you’d better watch out when we do. And “good women” seldom make history.
Feminism isn’t about hating men. Feminism is about acknowledging that women are actual human beings (controversial, I know), who can make informed decisions all on their own. But it is also about wanting the best for everyone, including men who also suffer under patriarchy.
“Maybe women are unhappy because feminism told them they were people, and then the world handed them a second shift, a childcare bill, a pay gap, a Dobbs decision, and a man asking why they don’t smile more.” Perfectly stated.
I’m 68, always single, childless by choice, so domestically, I’ve never suffered from any of this, but have watched my friends and family. I like my friends’ husbands, but would not put up with things my friends do. Part of the reason I never married was that I would not participate in the “women’s work” theory of life. Of course, in the work place, that was where I got to participate in some of the bullshit. Your article articulated what I’ve believed for more than 50 years. Thanks for the confirmation!
Susan B. Anthony wrote they she didnt marry and had several opportunities byt did not want to be either a doll or a drudge which were the only two options, unless you had a benign master(my words)
I have to wonder whether Spier got her husband's permission to write that article? I mean, since she's all about how feminine empowerment is so unhealthy and all....
Excellent takedown and rebuttal to what is quite frankly one of the most unhinged and disgusting misuses of psychological principals to attack feminism I’ve seen. I’m definitely gonna block that woman so her lousy articles don’t ever come up in my feed. That said, bravo, Professor Meredith! ❤️ I absolutely adore your analysis and response. I especially like the part about how women talking to each other and forming meaningful friendships threatens patriarchy. Makes me think of the Bechtel test in feminist media analysis and how rare it is to find movies where two women who both have names talk to each other about something other than a man. Imagine having so much internalized misogyny that you think female friendships detract from a romantic relationship with a man 🙄 Bold of Spier to assume heteronormativity there, also, and that all women are most fulfilled in a relationship with a man. Has she never heard of lesbian or bisexual women before?! Jeez. Total train wreck of an article, but you did an amazing job responding to said train wreck!
THIS IS THE MOST INCREDIBLE TAKEDOWN I HAVE EVER READ!!!
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
🥂
Professor Meredith, you are *that bitch* and I say that with all of the love in my heart 🥰
Thanks for your in-depth cogent takedown of Spier’s absurd essay. The idea that women were “happier” with fewer rights and that female friendship reduces the bonding that should rightfully belong to a man is so ridiculous it sounds like it’s from The Onion. I guess, according to Spier, we should diminish and decenter ourselves and stop spending so much time with our good besties and then all will be right with the world.
Her entire thesis seems to be that “if women just had less self-respect everyone would be fine!”
Women like Spier take the rights they have for granted. They don’t value what was fought for and what their entire lives as young women are based upon. Maybe she’d be happier staying home and working on her bonds with men instead of having the privilege to use her voice and be taken seriously. That credit card she uses, that business she might own, the mortgage she might have taken out- none of that was available to my generation until our mid- teens. I have a particular problem with women who have no respect for the fact that they have freedoms ( that are under attack) that their foremothers suffered and died for.
I realize you don't understand where Spier's is coming from but the fact that women are happier with less so called rights is absolutely correct. This coming from a women (me) I can't explain to you the power that's in serving a husband and being a traditional wife and mother is very fulfilling. You can say I'm brainwashed or uneducated if you so desire but that would be a lie. I'm highly educated and if you actually knew me personally you would understand I'm far from brainwashed.
You don’t need less rights to be a doormat for your husband. You can choose that for yourself. The point is that the role is not required.
I’m not saying you are brainwashed for wanting a specific lifestyle. Plenty of people have kinks and I’m not here to shame them.
What I AM here for is to say your kink shouldn’t be enforced by women not having rights.
Safe. Sane. CONSENSUAL. Kathy.
I don't believe Kathy Elmore is actually a woman from this example of writing.
Or she’s not as educated as she claims to be: one would expect her to know that she is a woman, not a “women.”
Please feel free to speak for yourself, but you sure as hell don’t have the right to speak for the rest of us.
So you’re just scared then. Speak for yourself next time.
Edit: Bad news gang, this woman is rotted from the inside out. She is an alt-right conspiracy theorist MAGAt. Just check her profile.
I suspected as much.
You have every right to keep yourself caged and dependent. You have every right to make your husband the center of your world and love your submissive role. Go for it. What you don’t have a right to do is force other women to give up our rights that we fought and suffered for. What is reprehensible is teaching young women to trap themselves and their children in dependency on another person who can control, abuse and abandon you at will. I have no desire to get to know you, Kathy. I’m interested in people who aren’t willing and eager to live under someone else’s boot. I don’t think you’re brainwashed. I don’t think of you at all.
Who is that I'm forcing? You? No I'm just stating my opinion.... just like you! The only reason I'm stating an opinion and your words in this post are very clear you try to belittle me because I believe in traditional relationships meaning I don't share your view on life. You call me caged? You seem quite angry for a women so happy with all the freedom and independence that her feminist ideals have given her!
Well, “Kathy” - I sincerely doubt you’re a woman. You barely have any presence on here, so that’s suspect. You sound like every pathetic man who trolls the feminist stacks. You’re even using the same wording. You would be taking care of your kids and cooking or cleaning up after dinner and not getting into online beefs with random strangers if you were, in fact, what you claim to be. However, you have a ton of stacks teaching you all about how to be submissive in your “reads” section. Are you into being told you’re a bad, bad girl, Kathy? Is that why you sought me out? Because I sound dominant and angry? I’m not interested in giving you your jollies. Go get them elsewhere. I’m done with us hijacking this post. Be a good little sub and crawl away.
Kathy tried to report your comment 😂
💯 true! 🔥
You have a submission kink but I don’t.
I want full human rights.
She’s probably a bit.
Choose whatever lifestyle you want, but recognize that not all women choose to be subservient. Many of us enjoy being adults: thinking for ourselves, and making choices even when they’re difficult. This is how we grow as human beings. Your choice to stay small should not be our prison sentence.
Man here, and I should hesitate to butt in, but I have a few questions for you Kathy.
I am assuming you are Christian, forgive me if that is a mistake. If you are, I would like to know how much you know about women in the bible.
This sounds very similiar to what I have heard some Muslim women say about putting men first. Which raises a question for me if you believe in theocratic rule. Which denomination gets to decide how the bible is interpreted? Catholic? Amish? Lutheran, which synod? The pastor of Sheridan Church? Gateway Church? How about my pastor?
Fine. You do that then. No other woman has to lose rights for you to do so.
Real men don’t need or desire that anyone submit to them.
Sincerely,
A real man.
I approve this message. 🌝
No they wear ponytails and manbuns and ask where is the nearest safe space!
Long hair, like Jesus?
It’s a little girl. She’s wearing a flowered dress. There’s a period in the tradwife life cycle where girls are allowed to play-act being wild and free. When they hit puberty they have to give up all that of course.
That was the style back then.
You know that how? Because you saw paintings of Jesus with long, blonde hair and blue eyes? You do know that not one of his contemporaries wrote a word about him, let alone his appearance.
👏👏👏👏🤣
Last time I checked, I was a veteran and former elite athlete and still elite for my age. No man bun, sorry.
Yup, and a fantastic man in every way.
You have zero power. None. Nothing. And the person persuading you that you do - most likely your overlord husband - is lying to you.
And you're fine with that. Good for you. But as you're so incredibly smart you should already know that you - one person - cannot speak for the entirety of womanhood on this planet.
So, with the greatest of respect, stop talking now. Your internalized misogyny is showing.
Hannah Spier carries water for the patriarchy. Substack recommended her when I first joined and I blocked her profile so it would stop showing up.
Don't tell me, let me guess. This idiot quisling is a Freudian.
She isn’t, but she definitely uses “quisling” correctly.
That's messed up. So the only probwith patriarchy is that women are too immature to agree to it?
Internalized misogyny is a scary drug.
I started reading the Hannah Spier post without knowing anything about her but began to suspect she has a specific point of view when she attributed the development of assertiveness as being induced by anger. In my experience, assertiveness more often develops when more, and better, information becomes available. And sometimes it develops when one’s back is against a wall or when a loved one is in danger. As I continued reading, I came across the phrase “women had properly adjusted to adult functioning”. What, I wonder, would she argue was evidence of such “proper adjustment”? Adult functioning better cover a broad range of areas — public (civic), employment, domestic, social — and who is setting the standard for “proper adjustment” in each of those areas? Furthermore, are those standards gender-based? I realized by the end of her article that I really didn’t want to read anything else from her. But thank you, Professor Meredith, for your post! I may have lived for over 3/4 of a century feeling like a stranger in a strange land, but now feel like I lived through a revolution of sorts wrt female empowerment.
She also seems to present her data in a vacuum. How does women's “happiness” (etc.) compare with men’s during the same periods?
I notice that women are still burdened with maintaining relationships. Where are the men? What is their responsibility?
I read years ago that more women file for divorce than men because men use affairs as their escape. They don't want a divorce. They have no desire to lose the labor of a wife.
Women do have affairs, of course -- if they can find the time.
In other words: What's the cost for women standing up for themselves when society is turned against them?
Feminism didn't make us miserable. We don't walk to our cars with keys between our knuckles, or watch our drinks like a hawk so they don't get adulterated, or any of those things because of feminism.
This is what they're doing now?? Wild!!
When I got to the link, I read Spier's essay and threw up in my mouth at least three times. I can't believe how loose her analysis is in a format claiming to expose loose analysis. Perhaps, as I have begun to question lately, Phyllis Shafly is an archetype? Some self-murdering shadow? But... but... but... The analysis, if you could even call it that, just glossed over everything important, pretending that there was a time when everyone was just happy, and the (dant, dant, daaaa) along came those feminists, and it was all downhill from there. Hang the witch! Then I read all those sanctimonious comments praising her good work, and thought: There's the drug. Thank you for addressing her point by point, so meticulously. I hope she reads it.
If this were just about grievance and feminist brainwashing the why do all systems of oppression follow a similar playbook? I dare her to write a piece about how addressing racism has made black people grievance victims(something fox news did on the regular) who were happier when they were kept in their place. Its the same argument; it just dupes us better becuase it overlaps into the personal narratives and social norms that kept us from asking for too much. .
I read Hannah’s article then read yours, Professor Meredith. I also read the comments on Hannah’s piece and my jaw dropped. I honestly couldn’t believe what I was reading. Many of the comments were from men saying how women have been privileged because of their poor, hardworking husbands and that we benefit from all the inventions and research breakthroughs that man made. Except they didn’t, of course. Women were the mothers of invention but had their work hijacked by men. Women were literally the first computers, they invented the wheelie suitcase, the spacesuits used by NASA astronauts were only made possible by women seamstresses among many other things.
See:
https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/products/mother-of-invention-book-katrine-maral-9780008430771?sku=GOR011742261&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=17416831122&gbraid=0AAAAADZzAIBpTla7tXWcVPV84Kw7dur1z&gclid=CjwKCAjw8uTQBhAdEiwAVvtJysnudcEmLhOCcLlxftoguwXcM_V_VPf5aueyad7tnc3SWJWVVcgEERoC3_cQAvD_BwE
I nearly left a comment myself thanking them for mansplaining feminism to me, despite my lived experience. The whole thing was a backlash at angry women even though we are angry for good reason. “Good women don’t get angry”, but you’d better watch out when we do. And “good women” seldom make history.
Feminism isn’t about hating men. Feminism is about acknowledging that women are actual human beings (controversial, I know), who can make informed decisions all on their own. But it is also about wanting the best for everyone, including men who also suffer under patriarchy.
“Maybe women are unhappy because feminism told them they were people, and then the world handed them a second shift, a childcare bill, a pay gap, a Dobbs decision, and a man asking why they don’t smile more.” Perfectly stated.
I’m 68, always single, childless by choice, so domestically, I’ve never suffered from any of this, but have watched my friends and family. I like my friends’ husbands, but would not put up with things my friends do. Part of the reason I never married was that I would not participate in the “women’s work” theory of life. Of course, in the work place, that was where I got to participate in some of the bullshit. Your article articulated what I’ve believed for more than 50 years. Thanks for the confirmation!
Susan B. Anthony wrote they she didnt marry and had several opportunities byt did not want to be either a doll or a drudge which were the only two options, unless you had a benign master(my words)
I have to wonder whether Spier got her husband's permission to write that article? I mean, since she's all about how feminine empowerment is so unhealthy and all....
Excellent takedown and rebuttal to what is quite frankly one of the most unhinged and disgusting misuses of psychological principals to attack feminism I’ve seen. I’m definitely gonna block that woman so her lousy articles don’t ever come up in my feed. That said, bravo, Professor Meredith! ❤️ I absolutely adore your analysis and response. I especially like the part about how women talking to each other and forming meaningful friendships threatens patriarchy. Makes me think of the Bechtel test in feminist media analysis and how rare it is to find movies where two women who both have names talk to each other about something other than a man. Imagine having so much internalized misogyny that you think female friendships detract from a romantic relationship with a man 🙄 Bold of Spier to assume heteronormativity there, also, and that all women are most fulfilled in a relationship with a man. Has she never heard of lesbian or bisexual women before?! Jeez. Total train wreck of an article, but you did an amazing job responding to said train wreck!